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lazzywritesstuff

okay the harley quinn shipping fandom is an absolute cesspool.

plenty of shippers are perfectly decent people, whether they ship deadshot/harley, joker/harley or harley/ivy (or something else, though those are the big three at the moment). we all have our reasons to ship/not ship a pairing, and many of us stay in our lane and respect each other.

and then there are the douchebags (from all three ships, and then some) who hate on shippers of rival pairings.

to some extent, all have a point to their criticisms.

there are people who are anti-floyd/harley because they’re racist. it’s a minority, but they do exist, and there is a bias about interracial ships present in fandom at large that needs to be addressed. however it’s a case more tailored to individuals than entire groups. don’t jump to call someone racist if they don’t agree with you about a fictional relationship that happens to be interracial. but if the races of harley and floyd are a factor in why you dislike this relationship, that’s racism.

there are people who are anti-floyd/harley, and refer to it as abusive, because in the comics, it is. at least in the new 52 era, which is where their relationship begun, where floyd and harley’s relationship is abusive, dysfunctional, and in general, pretty disgusting. it doesn’t appear to be the case in the dceu, but still, it isn’t a healthy relationship across the board. that should be acknowledged and discussed. and if abuse in one version of their relationship bothers someone too much to ever be able to ship it in a version that isn’t abusive, that’s that.

and then there are just flagshot shippers, people who ship deadshot with someone else, or no one at all. all three are also totally valid.

there are people who romanticize or ignore the abuse between joker and harley, and/or refer to them as ‘relationship goals’. and that is a serious fucking problem. but bullying these people isn’t going to change their minds. saying ‘‘oh, i can’t wait for the jarley shippers to wake up and realize that it’s abusive!!!’’ isn’t going to work. treating people like kindergartners who need to be guided on the right path, or abuse apologists who willingly endorse domestic violence is awful. assuming a place of moral superiority because you don’t like a pairing isn’t going to change opinions, it’s going to piss people off. (but if you do see this pairing as ‘relationship goals’, if you willingly ignore the abuse, or think of their behavior as okay, you are romanticizing and ignoring abuse.)

and most joker/harley shippers know that it’s abusive, and that it’s not a relationship they want in real life, nor do they support real-life abuse. many of us do acknowledge the abuse, whether we interpret it as an inherent part of their dynamic, or as a part of the progression of their relationship that they eventually leave behind. (which, in the animated series, they do. in the pre-52 comics, they begin to move in this direction. in suicide squad it’s strongly implied that they already have. and it’s not a reach if it’s been established canon since the first (and arguably, definitive) incarnation of the relationship.)

most joker/harley shippers hate the abuse, and like the settled dynamic of their relationship (which is what we focus on, because that’s the part of the ship we are drawn to, like how harley/ivy shippers don’t discuss the times ivy’s been terrible to harley and focus on new 52/rebirth, or floyd/harley shippers focus on the dceu instead of the comics). you can acknowledge the abuse as a part of their dynamic that shouldn’t be ignored, and still not enjoy it. it’s important to do so.

and if the abuse, whether past or present, is too much for someone, especially if they’re an abuse survivor who’s troubled by the idea of harley being in a relationship with someone who abuses her, whether it’s just in the past or still occurring, that’s absolutely okay.

there has to be respect for people who don’t like the ship as well, especially for people who have lived through similar experiences and are deeply affected by them.

(and i’m saying this regarding harley/ivy and harley/floyd too.)

and then there are people who ship joker with someone else, or people who just don’t see joker in a romantic relationship. and all individuals should be respected, even if we don’t like their ships.

there are people who believe that harley is just ‘jokersexual.’ or, on the flip side, that harley’s a lesbian who was brainwashed by joker into loving him. (no seriously those are things that have come up before) and that’s biphobic and gross on both ends. harley is bisexual. end of story. representation is important. being with floyd or joker or another man doesn’t make her straight. being with ivy or another woman doesn’t make her gay. and being bi doesn’t mean switching from a man to a woman or back again. she can experience romantic and sexual attraction to both men and women, regardless of what relationship she’s in, because that is literally what bisexuality is. and being in a committed relationship doesn’t make her not-bisexual.

there are people who are anti-harley/ivy because they’re homophobic. and that’s fucking awful, but again, like with deadshot, it’s individuals, not the group. don’t assume homophobia because someone doesn’t like a ship that happens to be queer. but if you dislike the relationship, and one of the reasons that keeps coming up for not liking it is that they’re both women, you are being homophobic.

there are people who are anti-harley/ivy because it’s also abusive. in particular, they hate the way they’ve been portrayed in the comics as of late, as a wholesome fluffy couple, when in the first (and arguably definitive) incarnation of their relationship, ivy is barely better for harley than the joker is in terms of abuse, without the growth arc that harley and joker go through. and that’s totally valid, because unfortunately, that’s the case. harley/ivy as of the new 52 and carrying over into rebirth has lost this part of the dynamic, which is extremely troubling. (yes, it’s nice that they’re good to each other now, but a lot of the depth in their relationship is now gone. and if harley and joker lost the abusive aspect to their relationship in the reboot, and were nothing but a fluffy couple, people would be losing their minds.)

emotional abuse, abuse perpetrated by women, and abuse in queer relationships should be taken as seriously as physical abuse, abuse perpetrated by men and abuse in heterosexual relationships. it shouldn’t matter if ivy’s abuse ‘isn’t as bad as joker’s’ (and ivy hasn’t hurt harley as bad as joker has), or if harley abuses her too (and for the record, she also abuses joker. and deadshot in the n52.), because it’s still an abusive relationship. someone is still getting hurt. we shouldn’t celebrate it as a victory if harley leaves joker for ivy, or if ivy ‘saves harley from joker’ (which she doesn’t. harley can take care of herself. don’t infantilize her.), because they’re not a ‘relationship goal’ either. harley isn’t leaving the cycle of domestic violence behind her, she’s just trading one bad relationship for another. on and on it spins, but this time, no one talks about it, because we are predisposed to dismiss the types of abuse present in harley/ivy, it doesn’t fit the typical narrative of domestic abuse present in the media we consume, and we’re so hard-pressed to find a complex wlw couple to ship that we brush the problems with it under the rug, or are more forgiving of them than we should be.

and the rabidness of certain harley/ivy shippers (again, not as a whole, individuals) to attack harley/joker shippers when their own ship also has some serious problems that aren’t being addressed has become part of the problem. we come across as deeply hypocritical, and insulting to survivors of abuse in queer relationships (and to survivors of emotional abuse/abuse perpetrated by women), just as ignoring/romanticizing h/j abuse is insulting to survivors of abuse in opposite-sex relationships (and physical abuse/abuse perpetrated by men).

floyd/harley shippers are guilty of attacking h/j shippers too, i will add, but not to the same extent as harley/ivy shippers (probably because the floyd/harley ship has been gaining popularity only recently, so i’ll leave it at that).

the same applies to harley/joker shippers. i understand the pushback, and that many of us are lumped into a box with the apologists, but we need to keep talking about it because it needs to be talked about. calling harley/ivy abusive while not acknowledging harley/joker’s abuse is also hypocritical and extremely problematic.

all three are abusive in one way or another, whether it’s continuity-based (h/f), a relationship that evolves from abuse to something more, but will still be unhealthy(h/j); or a relationship that starts off healthy and becomes abusive as time goes on, and stagnates at an unhealthy level (h/i). all three have been portrayed as abusive, and all three have been portrayed as deeply loving, or full of the potential to eventually become that.

no one has the moral high ground.

and then there are people who ship ivy with someone else, or ivy with no one at all. and those shippers should be respected too.

there are people who believe harley should only be with joker or only be with ivy. and the thing is, both relationships are inherently intertwined. you cannot have one without the other.

if harleen quinzel hadn’t met the joker, she’d have never become harley quinn. ivy would have never met her, or interacted with her outside of the role of doctor/patient, which would have only fostered hatred on ivy’s end because of how much she hates arkham, and never ended in any sort of relationship. if harley and joker hadn’t been together first, ivy would have never taken the time to develop feelings for her, because she would have never sympathized with harley (in the pre-52 comics, ivy would have turned her into mulch if she hadn’t wanted to hear harley’s story about how she met the joker, and in the animated series, ivy only meets harley because, again, she’s affiliated with joker). best case scenario, ivy and harley would have just never met. worst case scenario, ivy would have killed harley.

if harley hadn’t been with ivy, she wouldn’t have gotten to the part of her and joker’s relationship that the shippers love, because ivy helps harley realize that she is her own person, and that she deserves better (granted, ivy is also abusive and controlling to harley at this time, which plays a part in their relationship falling apart), which inspires harley to act on those realizations and trigger a massive change in her dynamic with joker, setting them on more equal footing. or it would have taken much longer for harley to come to terms with this and act on it. (unlikely, but still possible.)

both are codependent on each other to exist. joker/harley had to happen for harley/ivy to happen. harley/ivy had to happen for joker/harley to improve.

i’m focusing on harley/ivy and harley/joker in particular because both relationships have a longstanding history with harley’s character, while harley/floyd is a relatively recent development (which was not done well by any means in the comics). harley and floyd don’t have much history together, so quinnshot’s the outlier here. not to say that it’s not a legitimate ship, because all ships are legitimate. but it’s comparatively new, with not much development to it’s name yet. it could develop that way, it could not.

and then there are people who ship harley with no one at all, or with someone who isn’t floyd, pam or joker. and that’s totally cool, and we need to respect that too.

to conclude: we as shippers, and as individuals, shouldn’t assume racism or romanticization or homophobia where there is none. but it’s still a thing to consider, because it is a real problem that exists, and we need to talk about it.

every person is different, and the internet is a very big place with a lot of very different people with different viewpoints and values interacting. it’s inevitable that you will disagree with someone. it’s inevitable that people are going to be gross, because the internet provides us with anonymity. it’s inevitable that you are going to be offended by something.

everyone has a valid reason to dislike a ship. everyone has a valid reason to like a ship. this can open up great opportunities for debate, but also lead to a lot of mindless hate.

keep your negativity out of the ship tags. people go there to enjoy something they like, and have fun, and you have no right to make it needlessly toxic and nasty. and don’t bash a ship you hate in the ship you love’s tag. because that’s not what it’s for. the anti-ship tag exists for a reason. direct your hate there.

and don’t go after people for the things that make them happy. we all have opinions, and our opinions should be respected when they’re valid, and questioned and called out when they come from a place of prejudice, so we can broaden our perspectives and hopefully grow as people.

however, it should be done in a way that doesn’t provoke a knee-jerk reaction that often comes with being sent hate. our disgust and anger is valid, but it will be taken the wrong way, and it won’t lead to anything more than continued hostility on both sides.

because all three relationships have problems. all of these characters are deeply flawed, mentally ill (if not outright insane) supervillains living unhealthy lifestyles, so of course any ship involving them is going to have problems. and as supporters of any of the relationships, we have an obligation and a responsibility to acknowledge and discuss those problems, but we (all of us) should still be allowed to enjoy something that makes us happy.

lady-ha-ha

☝☝☝☝☝☝👆👆👆👆

See, that’s what the app is perfect for.